The only problem with cutting gown skirts in a circle is that the don't look like the pictures. The very pronounced pleats at the waist aren't there if you cut the skirts as a circle.
-- In order to get the pleats of hugeness one designs the inner circle first so that the pleats are of the desired size. (So amount needed per pleat x waist measurement.) After you have determined this circle, you create the outer circle. The fabric usage is less than you might think with railroading like Marie's skirt, but a fully pleated circle skirt takes more fabric than a non pleated one. There's also the period practice of padding the pleats with felt that could help that look, but I don't think I've found a written reference back to the 1530's. If you think about it if you have enough trapezoids you are back to a more or less circular arrangement.
But I've never heard of this pattern books of Waffenrocks! Can you give me the names of those books? I thought the construction of Waffenrocks (particularly the closures) were a mystery as well!
-- They are in the Nidermayr schnittbuch, one in the Leonfelder schnittbuch on Drea's page too. (Enns too, maybe - I'll have to look.) The 17th Praun schnittbuch shows a full circle and calls this the khurassrock (cuirass gown) and states that it is of the style that men used to wear. Waffenrocks when mentioned are specifically for use with armour, but riding gowns (reitrock) seem to be of the same design.
--I haven't done a real thorough evaluation but it seems that there are burger's rocks with circular pieces as well. There are a couple of instances where I can see that the puppies are double breasted, but I don't know if they always did that. There isn't any reason why they couldn't have used hooks and eyes as they are pretty common in Germany during this period. Sometimes you can see ties in the corners of the square neckline leading me to think that they were tied as well.
The underbodice idea is intriguing (and of course, possible). I just think that Cranach's typical subject -- small busted young girls -- didn't need that kind of support. So they didn't have it. But it does make engineering sense.
--I'd agree that the A/B cups of the fashionable body style didn't probably need it. But it provides a great base for pinning the plastron into place. And I'm NOT a small busted young girl, but there are very few pictures of the Cranach style on anyone larger enough to warrant it. But pictures of women nursing who have a bigger bust size are wearing a supportive garment. That makes sense for a 48 year old well endowed woman, who now, however, is old enough to have been rather scandalous wearing clothing of young women looking for rich husbands or ducal mistresses ;D Even in the 12th century there is a quote about the horrors of looking at an older woman wearing the bliaut and braids - thinking that she is young until they get a (perhaps drunken) closer look (oh noes!!!).
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Date: 2007-09-06 10:46 pm (UTC)-- In order to get the pleats of hugeness one designs the inner circle first so that the pleats are of the desired size. (So amount needed per pleat x waist measurement.) After you have determined this circle, you create the outer circle. The fabric usage is less than you might think with railroading like Marie's skirt, but a fully pleated circle skirt takes more fabric than a non pleated one. There's also the period practice of padding the pleats with felt that could help that look, but I don't think I've found a written reference back to the 1530's. If you think about it if you have enough trapezoids you are back to a more or less circular arrangement.
But I've never heard of this pattern books of Waffenrocks! Can you give me the names of those books? I thought the construction of Waffenrocks (particularly the closures) were a mystery as well!
-- They are in the Nidermayr schnittbuch, one in the Leonfelder schnittbuch on Drea's page too. (Enns too, maybe - I'll have to look.) The 17th Praun schnittbuch shows a full circle and calls this the khurassrock (cuirass gown) and states that it is of the style that men used to wear. Waffenrocks when mentioned are specifically for use with armour, but riding gowns (reitrock) seem to be of the same design.
--I haven't done a real thorough evaluation but it seems that there are burger's rocks with circular pieces as well. There are a couple of instances where I can see that the puppies are double breasted, but I don't know if they always did that. There isn't any reason why they couldn't have used hooks and eyes as they are pretty common in Germany during this period. Sometimes you can see ties in the corners of the square neckline leading me to think that they were tied as well.
The underbodice idea is intriguing (and of course, possible). I just think that Cranach's typical subject -- small busted young girls -- didn't need that kind of support. So they didn't have it. But it does make engineering sense.
--I'd agree that the A/B cups of the fashionable body style didn't probably need it. But it provides a great base for pinning the plastron into place. And I'm NOT a small busted young girl, but there are very few pictures of the Cranach style on anyone larger enough to warrant it. But pictures of women nursing who have a bigger bust size are wearing a supportive garment. That makes sense for a 48 year old well endowed woman, who now, however, is old enough to have been rather scandalous wearing clothing of young women looking for rich husbands or ducal mistresses ;D Even in the 12th century there is a quote about the horrors of looking at an older woman wearing the bliaut and braids - thinking that she is young until they get a (perhaps drunken) closer look (oh noes!!!).