Eva&#39;s journal

Well, one assumes that the drawers for your 19th c ensemble have an open crotch like 16th c ones? That would seem to be as essential for that period as it is for the earlier era, and for the same reason...that being, that you can not get them off when nature calls, when the waistband is trapped beneath your clothing.

A very great local Laurel friend of mine tells funny stories about the problems of nether garment waistbands trapped under layer upon layer of clothing in time of dire need, because she was too modest to have an open crotch! ;D

Mine are patterned from an extant pair in the American Civil War era, because they are similar enough to those worn in the 16th c. that they "work" very well for my kit. But, I don't know enough about 19th c clothing to know if that was standard practice. I only assume it was. They have a kind of overlap design that prevents them from being, or feeling too immodest.

For the record, I wear mine under the chemise, and under the corset. They are lovely soft linen and have a 2" wide waistband that lays nice and smooth, so it's neither bulky or uncomfortable under the corset. And they function perfectly when needed. It sounds as if you might be using a gathered waist or drawstring. Do you have any option to use a different style of waistband?

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pinque.livejournal.com

I have a "naughty" series of a woman getting dressed, and her drawers are over her corsets but under her bustle.

So you can see even if you wear the drawers over the corsets you still have a dickens of a time trying to utilise the ladies room;)

She has a waistband as well it it helps.

This is from around.. oh.. 1875. So it's a bit later.

It seems that the 70's were a geat decade for seeign what went under, as some painters showed women in half dress as awella s all the advertising for corsets etc.

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good question, never thought about it really. i've just assumed they'd go under, but now i start to wonder...

However, if one doesn't make them wider in the waist than they can just slip on, i believe they won't be too bulky to wear under a crinoline or a bustle. some of the late 70s and 80s have a broad hip piece to avoid bulk in the waist. that's what i had been planning to do anyhow.. i've cut mine after a pattern from 1890s, going to modify them with a wider wiastband as i said above and then but most of the bulk towards the back (cartridge pleating i think). This will leave them quite flat in the front as i _think_ i've decided to go fot the 70s natural form or bustle with cuirasse bodice. think, as in not decided.

borrowed a lovely book of french coloured fashion plates from 1860s yesterday, want me to send you some pics tonight?

/m -who's just now off to copenhagen for a meeting...

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oh...

would you mind sharing those naughty pics somehow? i would really love to see their undies.. ;)

/m

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>>if one doesn't make them wider in the waist than they can just slip on

if one is using a drawstring that is. and is using the hip measure as the total width. then you can maybe choose under/over as it suits you best later?

/m -a bit too tired, hate early morning flights.

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The ones I've seen have quite a lot of fabric gathered into a waistband. I'm still going to try wearing them under the not-even-started corseet I think. And of course they're open crotch. For 16th c. I don't wear drawers since I haven't seen any documentation that has convinced me. But then it would be fairly easy to get the drawers off since the corset doesn't reach very low below your waist. The problem would be to get them on again :)

Eva

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I would love to see some pictures when you get home, I'm sick and need some encouragement. But the best would be to put them in a photo folder at our list (extremely easy to do, just follow the instructions) so that more people can see them.

Eva

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"For 16th c. I don't wear drawers since I haven't seen any documentation that has convinced me."

I can provide you with photos of extant period examples. Would that serve?

And actually, you are incorrect. The "effigy corset" that I wear has quite long boned tabs, and in particular a very deep center front point. When the corset, farthingale, petticoat, underskirt, overskirt, and doublet are in place, it is quite impossible to get the drawers off, I assure you! :) Which is not even taking into account one's limited mobility in a full court Elizabethan gown. It makes getting them on again, even more difficult, and probably not even possible. Believe me, I've tried. :)

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Here's a photo of two pair of extant drawers, Italain, late 16th century, from "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd", by Janet Arnold. I will track down the page reference for you, as soon as I find my books again. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/hleleanor/WhitelinendrawersItalianlate16cQEWU209.jpg

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I wear an effigy corset sometimes and I have seen the two italian drawers and the courtesan engraving. Whether they were used by respectable women and outside Italy is definitely up to debate.
I actually managed to get my panties off from under my long straight fronted 1901-corset (but not on again) so I can't see that it would be impossible from under the effigy corset. I guess it depends on how much you constrict your waist, but with a straight busk I always end up with a little extra room were my waist does a dip in in the front and I can get my fingers there to open a drawstring by shifting some of my body fat. Buttoned drawers would be impossible though.

Eva

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LOL! I wish I could "shift some of my body fat"! HAH!!! Unfortunately, it seems to be unshiftable, so my corset is pretty tight. If you have that much room beneath your busk, you are good to go! Best of luck. :) LOL! Yep. Buttons could pose a real problem.

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Hmmm... That example is fairly well known but there's still no proof they were common wear (worn by non-courtesans) or that they wwere worn outside of Italy.

On the other hand - Id' say that anyone getting a close enough look up your skirts to tell whether you're wearing drawers or not is either about to be slapped (possibly arrested!) or has your permission to be there for other reasons

Teddy

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It's not really my period but...

I always assumed they go under on the grounds that whatever slip/chemise you wear *under* your corset would have to go *over* the drawers, because otherwise you'd have to tuck all of the chemise-skirts into your drawers and that would be even more bulky.

Perhaps they used very fine fabric for the drawers to eliminate bulk, or perhaps yours need to be cut narrower at the waist so there';s less gather?

Teddy

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But the discussion that

koshka_the_cat posted shows some evidence that they put the knee-lenght (or shorter) chemise _inside_ their drawers to mak ethem puff out more. It is very interesting.

Eva

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Well, I won't argue that they didn't but I will say that it doesn't sound like the most comfortable arrangement - and it would really really get in the way of going to he toilet even with a split crotch on the drawers!)

Teddy

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Actually, the whole point that started this conversation was "under or over the corset", not how common the wearing of drawers were in the 16th c. I expect it was fairly uncommon, as you say. However, the fact that they were not completely unknown is sufficient rationale for me. I wear mine out of convenience and modesty. And believe me, I'd rather wear none, than have someone see me in them. Sexy, they ain't! ;)

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just to make you happy dear, i uploaded 4 images to a photo album on the list!
now i'm off for bed. i'll upload more and better quality images on my webserver later, when i'm not as tired. hope you feel better soon and you have a inspiring meeting tomorrow!

... i've found the prettiest broad antique lace this weekend (enough for corset emellishment) and some more narrow antique laces for drawers and chemises, in one of my boxes of stuff ! and a 19th c pearl embroidered reticule! *smile*

now i'm off to bed

/m

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ps. have you seen this?
http://www.fabrics.net/colpics/Jan01/peteerson1863drawers.jpg

(although i admit it doesnt say anything about the question on under or over..)

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No I hadn't. Great!

Eva

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Are you sure about the sexy thing?
You might be surprised. Especially if you add some embroidery.

Eva

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