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frualeydisI just visited AIPON and looked at a very nice 14th century dress made of linen dyed with madder. It really wasn't the dress that made me upset but something somebody posted about the use of linen in outer garments. If you don't want to see this less sunshine-y and smiling side of me, just skip this:What she/he said was that "the linen debate is just a debate", meaning that you can do as you like, because there are as many arguments for it as against it. It might be so within the SCA and some other re-enactor's groups, but there exists professional research in the field too and while no scholar in the field can say that outer garments in linen didn't exist, there are no published finds of linen outerwear from the middle ages and the general consensus is that wool was the preferred material.
Apart from the lack of finds which can be explained by the fact that vegetable fibres aren't preserved very well there is so much evidence for wool (and silk) and none for linen as material in outer gowns(There is some discussion about literary references to linen outerwear from 12th century southern France, but no clear conclusions can be drawn). I have studied 2000 documents from Norway and Sweden from the period 1200-1500 and found very few references to linen clothes, all of them for underwear. There is what might be a preserved late 15th c linen kirtle in the national museum of Finland (german origin) and queen Margaret's golden gown (early 15th c) is partially lined with blue linen. Compare this with the wealth of references to wool clothing in all kinds of medieval sources and at least I draw the conclusion that it is unlikely that linen was used as the top layer.
Note that I'm not saying that you can't use it, I don't snark people and I even use it for some of my children's clothes because they have more problems with heat than adults. Hell, I use cable ties in my corsets, nylon net on my current project, wool with some polyester in it and other things they never used in period, but then I never claim that they did. But if somebody discusses how it was in the middle ages I say that linen isn't documented in outerwear.
And it irritates the hell out of me when people just brush aside all mine and other's research with "it's just a debate, nobody knows for sure". Yes, nobody knows for sure, but all evidence points in one direction, shouldn't that count for something?
And about the argument that shows up all the time: "It must have been used this way, they just haven't found any evidence of it yet", you can just as well say that they must have had velcro. Yeah, they might have had it but since I'm no psychic I must rely on the evidence we have, which is plenty.
This is the bitchiest thing I've ever written on the internet and it's not intended to hurt or offend anyone. I don't mind using substitutions like cotton velvet if it looks ok when you do costumes, but I think there is a difference between making a conscious choice to use or not to use something and another thing to claim against all evidence that it is period.
I do love you all and I dont't think less of you even if you make your costumes out of reused milk cartons (maybe I would think more of you if you came up with a way of doing that).
Apart from the lack of finds which can be explained by the fact that vegetable fibres aren't preserved very well there is so much evidence for wool (and silk) and none for linen as material in outer gowns(There is some discussion about literary references to linen outerwear from 12th century southern France, but no clear conclusions can be drawn). I have studied 2000 documents from Norway and Sweden from the period 1200-1500 and found very few references to linen clothes, all of them for underwear. There is what might be a preserved late 15th c linen kirtle in the national museum of Finland (german origin) and queen Margaret's golden gown (early 15th c) is partially lined with blue linen. Compare this with the wealth of references to wool clothing in all kinds of medieval sources and at least I draw the conclusion that it is unlikely that linen was used as the top layer.
Note that I'm not saying that you can't use it, I don't snark people and I even use it for some of my children's clothes because they have more problems with heat than adults. Hell, I use cable ties in my corsets, nylon net on my current project, wool with some polyester in it and other things they never used in period, but then I never claim that they did. But if somebody discusses how it was in the middle ages I say that linen isn't documented in outerwear.
And it irritates the hell out of me when people just brush aside all mine and other's research with "it's just a debate, nobody knows for sure". Yes, nobody knows for sure, but all evidence points in one direction, shouldn't that count for something?
And about the argument that shows up all the time: "It must have been used this way, they just haven't found any evidence of it yet", you can just as well say that they must have had velcro. Yeah, they might have had it but since I'm no psychic I must rely on the evidence we have, which is plenty.
This is the bitchiest thing I've ever written on the internet and it's not intended to hurt or offend anyone. I don't mind using substitutions like cotton velvet if it looks ok when you do costumes, but I think there is a difference between making a conscious choice to use or not to use something and another thing to claim against all evidence that it is period.
I do love you all and I dont't think less of you even if you make your costumes out of reused milk cartons (maybe I would think more of you if you came up with a way of doing that).
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no subject
Date: 2004-01-09 09:14 am (UTC)But yea, the You cant prove someome DIDNT do something has never run flush with me either.
I used to say that a good deal of women in the middle ages dyed their hair purple and blue. They all wore elaborate headgear (Wimples to frenchhoods) where you cant see their hair therefore how do you know their hair ISNT purple. Its rediculous but so is claiming that ANYTHING exists because you cant prove it doesnt.
no subject
Date: 2004-01-09 10:45 am (UTC)But eva, - in your written sources, hoe many referenced to smocks/shirts and such do you find where the material is mentioned. I jsut did a brieff search in the diplomatarium norvegicum, and didn't find anything (found smocks allright, but no material mentioned) I read some books that mentioned smocks made out of wool/vadmel(sp?)... you are the expert here.
no subject
Date: 2004-01-10 02:55 am (UTC)*Laughing*
You are so right about the hair :)
And I know it's almost impossible to find wool, or even linen in some parts of the states and I feel so sorry for you. Here the only thing that is hard to find and extremely expensive when you find it is silk, but somehow it is easier to live without silk.
Also, the most popular wool for the upper classes in most of the middle ages was felted, but when is it's really hot I use very thin unfelted tabby wool, which probably is correct until the middle of the 13th c, but would have been much less common after that. You always make compromises and I have no problem with that, it's the justifying that gets to me sometimes.
Eva
no subject
Date: 2004-01-12 09:27 am (UTC)Here ya go
Date: 2004-01-15 07:46 am (UTC)