16th century man's shirt

[frualeydis]

Look at this portrait. His shirt has a turndown collar, which isn't that uncommon, but still more rare than a ruffle, and it looks like it's buttoned with what seems to be fabric covered buttons!

Edited Lia corrected me; I should look first and post later, he's of course wearing a white doublet over shirt. But I'm keeping the post here to remind me to think first and talk later :)

Comments

[liadethornegge.livejournal.com]

Wow. That certainly is a turndown collar, and so early in the century. Nifty.

However, I do not believe it's the shirt that is buttoned, rather it is a white jerkin or doublet. I can't decide if it's slashed or what. And there are some odd lines at his shoulders that I don't quite understand --- unless it too has a collar that is turned down. Hmm. Interesting portrait!

[frualeydis.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course, I'm such an idiot. I guess the lines are slashes?

/Eva

[liadethornegge.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I would've thought slashes would fall open much more, being so long and horizontal like that. It could concievably be couched cord? Maybe it's a leather jerkin with those lines scored into the leather but not cut through? I have no idea!

[frualeydis.livejournal.com]

You know, it does look a little like pintucks. Which it of course almost certainly isn't.

/Eva

[clothsprogs.livejournal.com]

I'd have thought they'd only fall open if unbuttoned (fastening the doublet keeps the horisontal tension across the fornt of the garment therby not allowing horizontal slashes to gap/sag much).

It's possibly in white leather which would be stiffer and less likely to sag than fine fabrics.

Also it looks as if the button immediately under the fold-down collar is on the shirt rather than the doublet - the lines of the doublet opening seem to part just below that button if you look carefully, so it may be a button-fronted shirt after all (or a white buttoned doublet in white with a white slashed jerkin worn over it with the collar open)....

Teddy

[liadethornegge.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yes I see what you mean about tension. But they look to be a bit wavy now even. Is that the sleeve we can glimpse to the right? under the black cloak? Does it also have those wavy lines on it? The more I look at it the more puzzled I become!

Closer inspection of the neckline does seem to indicate that the top white layer is not responsible for that top button, I agree.

It's all so confusing. I'm staring myself blind on those wierd lines at the shoulder/collarbone. What the hell is that?

[clothsprogs.livejournal.com]

Ok, here's a possibility - yes, that is the sleeve and it has got the same "slashes"... perhaps it's tight enough to prevent sag (or sneakily tached sown to an unslashed lining layer?)

As to the lines at the shoulder/collarbone - possibly the open collar of the slashed doublet folded down because it was taller than the collar band of the fold-down shirt so the layers wouldn't sit right (I've resorted to doing this myself on occasions when I've got all the way dresesd before realizing shirt and doublet collar incompatibility and can't be bothered to undress again - it creates a similar look)

Teddy

[mirazandar.livejournal.com]

that looks pretty awsome nonetheless. I like the look

Ruffs and Collars

[molotov-quaker.livejournal.com]

It's not so much that turned down collars are uncommon, its just that they're extremely rare that early in the 16th century. By the mid to late-1580s is when they start turning up with some regularity, although then it's oten difficult to tell if the collar is part of the shirt, or a adnorment similar to a ruff. Though falling collars seem to reach a parity with ruffs around the turn of the century, and do not completly replace ruffs among women until the 1660s-1670s (at the earliest). Some examples:

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/HenryWindsor.jpg (1588)

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan8.jpg (1588)

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/WalterRaleigh3.jpg (1590)

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Locket.jpg (1590- may be a ruff, hard to tell)

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan3.jpg (1593)

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/HenryWriothesley1.jpg (1594- pretty obviously part of the shirt)

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/HenrySlingsby.jpg (1595)

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/HenryPercy.jpg (1595- again, looks to be part of the shirt)

http://www.tudor-portraits.com/ArundellTalbot.jpg (1596)

But nice find! :)