frualeydis: (effigy stays)
[personal profile] frualeydis
Having got the advice that you don't need straps if you're small busted yesterday I started wondering if there is any evidence for stays without straps from the 16th century, or even before the 19th. The preserved ones from the 16th century have straps, an all 17th and 18th century stays I can think of (that are preserved complete), but I am not sure about the 18th century. And how about paintings and sketches? Granted, there are not many from the 16th century, and in the most famous she wears a jacket on top of it, but do you know of any other?

Date: 2008-05-26 06:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarahnucci.livejournal.com
There are lots of pair of stays from the late 18th century that dont' have straps - mainly work stays. Fit and Proper along with What Clothes Reveal have images of them.

Date: 2008-05-26 06:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] frualeydis.livejournal.com
Thanks. I was much more uncertain about the 18th century. It's a period I haven't done much and there is so much preserved compared to earlier periods.

/Eva

Date: 2008-05-26 06:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peronel.livejournal.com
I confess I'm not convinced that stays were commonly worn garments for ANYONE except maybe the elite in the 16th. In the wills, most people are leaving petticoats (presumably upperbodied) and not stays. I"m not saying they didn't exist - they did of course - but I don't think they were the only solution to achieving a flat body.

It's a while since I looked through the accounts in QEWU and I don't have my own copy to double check, but again I think petticoats are far more common than stays. It struck me when I was reading it that most petticoats are described as the upperbody being stiffened with buckram. No mention of boning.

So I reckon the cone shaped strapless heavily boned corset is most likely a reenactor myth. I find the lightly boned petticoat-bodies works fine for most looks, and I'm currently putting together a variant stiffened only with canvas to see if that does the trick.

Sorry, not quite what you were asking.

Date: 2008-05-26 08:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] frualeydis.livejournal.com
Nothing to be sorry about. I knew that a lightly boned petticoat would have been more appropriate, but she wanted stays and since it's not much work or fabric I thought she could have her way. Her gown will probably be very upperclass-y, since it's for the SCA court in Visby.

/Eva

Date: 2008-05-26 07:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] myladyswardrobe.livejournal.com
Whilst I was writing the documentation to support my 1588 gown for the Costume Con, I was working through various written sources etc to back up what I have made.

Regarding stays this is what I found in a couple of written sources a number of references to "frenche bodies" which I think can definitely be interpreted as stays rather than petticoat bodies.

References from Costume 15 (1981) - "Peckover and Gallyard, Two Sixteenth Century Norfolk Tailors" - Elizabeth Stern.

Christmas Quarter 1590:
iij paier of bentes;
ij yards of buckrom & di. yard of canvis;
styffengye for the thre gounes".

Christmas Quarter 1591:
ij paier of french bodies;
....
makeing mres Elizabeth and mres Win. a paier of bodies;
....
a paier of frenche bodies
....
a paier of frencge bodies for mres A.Bacon
....
whales bones to them
makeinge a paier of bodies for my mres
a yard iij qters of russet fustion to them
buckrum to them

Christmas Quarter 1592
v yardes of byndinge lace for mres Elizabeths bodies
....
whales bone for the bodies
....
a yard of crimson lithe grosgrain for my [sic] Anne & mres Win. for frenche bodies
an ounce di. of byndinge lace for them
a qter of stitchinge silke for them
....
ij Buskes

Peckover's Bill 1592 (entered Christmas Quarter 1594)
an elle of canvis for my mres Frenche Bodyes
vj yardes of greene bindinge to them
vj yardes of poytinge
iij qters of an ounce of grene silke
....
di. elle of wrought vellat for a paier of bodies
an ounce qter of gould lace

Peckover's Bill 1594
ij yardes of sackinge for a paier of frenche bodies.

What is interesting is Peckover and Gallyard were serving the Bacon family - but NOT the part of it that was at Court. This was Nathaniel Bacon of Stiffkey. Though he was a second son of the famous Sir Nicholas Bacon, Nathaniel did not take part in court events preferring to focus on local level - bit like the Cloptons really.

The references to Frenche bodies are from 1591 onwards bit the bills are actually referring to items made a year or so before and the full lists are from the late 1580s.

There is a lovely reference I have quoted above to Whales Bones for the bodies - can't be for anything else as it is written along with the Frenche Bodies reference.

New Year's Gift Lists to QEI:
Anno Regni Regine Elizabethe vicesimo, 1577-8.
By Elizabeth Knowlls, a fore parte, boddies, and partelet of sipers, cryppen work.

Anno Regni Regine Elizabeth tricesimo-primo, 1588-9
By the Barrones Hunsdon, a peire of bodies for the covering of a gowne of black stitcht cloth, florished with gold and some owes.

I would say these references are a bit ambiguous but then they are gifts to the Queen and perhaps a proper "corset" would be a bit too personal. There are more references to bodies as in proper stays in QEWU but I don't have time to look through it now. Do you have a copy yourself?

As to whether they have straps or not. I would say they do. There are three corset pictures I have - Elizabeth Vernon of course and I suspect she does have straps; a red on of the late 16th century of a french school (look on my website as I have a copy there) and another (also on my website) which is embroidered or perhaps a damask with matching skirt. ALL three have straps as do the two extant ones.

I would say that a proper "Corset" or "paier of bodies" probably doesn't start coming in till the later 1570s. Stiffened upper bodies attached to a petticoat is probably what is being worn earlier but then they pretty much are "corsets" with skirts attached!

Hope that helps.


Date: 2008-05-26 08:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] frualeydis.livejournal.com
Thanks for all the info. I will probably make straps; depends a little on what she wants.

/Eva

Date: 2008-05-26 03:24 pm (UTC)
ext_8695: Self portrait 2007 (Default)
From: [identity profile] jauncourt.livejournal.com
You also said she has a a-b cup, so she may have less of an issue with straps causing an upward creep than young, flatchested I. I defnitely advise the little pillow pad set just under the bust, though, to keep things where they need to be.

Date: 2008-05-26 03:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] frualeydis.livejournal.com
Yes, I think i'll try that. The pillow may solve anotehr "problem" too: one breast being larger than the other.

/Eva

Date: 2008-05-26 04:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] annalindqvist.livejournal.com
I think it will be more comfortable to have shoulderstraps on stays without tabs. I made my first stays without tabs and even if they had shoulderstraps it was "going down" after an hour or two.

/Anna

Date: 2008-05-26 07:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bauhausfrau.livejournal.com
As far as the comfort and size issues goes just FYI I'm a D cup and use strapless 18th C stays with no problem. They DO have tabs but tat doesn't make them any less comfortable.

Date: 2008-05-26 09:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] operafantomet.livejournal.com
Again not quite what you were looking for.... but Moda a Firenze points out this painting:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/allori1596.jpg

They're debating on whether it could be a sort of strapless waistband functioning as a corset (or a "hold in the chemise" thing). A better version of the painting is on page 130, the general stays debate is on page 131 and 132.

I fear that's the best I came up with...

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