I'm happy I live in a civilized country

[frualeydis]

I just wrote a long response to a person in a discussion in a friend's journal, and LJ ate it. This person was criticizing/ridiculing a couple who believed "that only verbal reprimands should be used on their children" and I wrote that quite a few people believe that hitting children is wrong. That even if it doesn't give lasting physical damage the fact that the one person the child trusts utterly willfully hurts it will cause emotional damage. Children can't rationalize why mum and dad, who they love and who they believed loved them, suddenly would want to hurt them. It is a breeding ground for low self esteem, insecurity and issues with trust. Also, children who are abused very easily pass this pattern on to their own kids.
I wonder how people can think it's wrong if a man beats his wife, but okay if a parent beats his child.

I'm happy I live in a civilized country where the beating of children is forbidden by law. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but there is much less general acceptance of violence against children and statistics indicate that it is more rare since the law was made in the 70s.

ETA clothsprogs' comment made me realise one thing. I, the extremely scared of conflicts person, actually feel secure enough among my friends on LJ to write something that I know is controversial. Yay!

Comments

[clothsprogs.livejournal.com]

It's something we'll have to agree to differ on.

I don't agree with beating a child to an extent that causes anyh form of lasting physical harm, but a spanking to reinforce the point when verbal reprimand has no effect on a child's behaviour does them no actual physical harm, and makes them realize that the adult means what they say. It's a last resort punishment, other "physical" punishments such as a place the child is sent to for a period of time in order to think about what they have done wrong and/or loss of some privilege that they enjoy for a time can be very effective, but some children will carry on pushing the boundaries and there has to be some mechanism for a "short sharp shock" to give them that boundary line.

Teddy

[frualeydis.livejournal.com]

But, nobody that I know hit their children and some of them are well behaved, some of them aren't. My big ones are very well behaved and in general Maja is too, now that she understands things, infants are a bit hard to explain things to.
But I know that the world in general thinks differently than the nordic countries. But I wonder, do they also think that it's okay to slap a woman who doesn't obey her husband? If thye're consistent the answer would be yes. The stronger have the right to physically control the weaker.

/Eva

[green-martha.livejournal.com]

Errrr.... in a relationship between two adults, one doesn't educate the other, nor does one have to be obeyed by the other.

To me, it is not about physically controlling the child, but about drawing a very clear line. I can not word my thoughts on the matter better than sarahbellem already did. I sometimes got spanked as a child, and I still think it was a good thing.

Yes, you can use words to reason children. Words can sometimes be sharper and harder than any slap, spanking or even the hardest blow you could get...

[norayn.livejournal.com]

Frualeydis ~

There is an art and a talent to being about to communicate with a child.
To have the gift is a god send.

I am not a proponant of hitting children.

Many times what I see about me ( I am in America) are parents who are not ill intentioned but who have really little skill in communicating verbally with their child. Listen around you and you will hear adults/parents saying things to children in words that are 'not comprehensible' to a young child because the adult is talking to the child 'at the adult level' ~ a young child does not have the brain development or cognitive development to comprehend much of what has been stated, then the child might get smacked, spanked, or 'abused' for "not listening" or not complying, when in actuality the child did not & is not expected to have understood what had been said to them. This is the reason why good parenting is "work" in itself. Young children who have been nurtured along, at the childs level of comprehension and achievement oftentimes have a much better time of it.

Also families with more children then the coping resources of the parent(s) involved, same thing. The child will not get the benefit.

Just 2 of the factors which sometimes result in what some may refer to as 'asshole children' ~ children are the product of their parents in sooo many ways. Just my 2 cents!

Vrederun

[frualeydis.livejournal.com]

And you are so right. "Impossible" children are usually the reult of their parents. It is very hard sometimes to communicate with smaller children, but if you don't want to resort to the right of the stronger there is nothing to do but try.

/Eva

[clothsprogs.livejournal.com]

do they also think that it's okay to slap a woman who doesn't obey her husband?

So long as she has the right to slap him too.

They are adults and (rtightly or wrongly) are presumably expected to have achieved an ability to reason beyond that expected of children.

Not all children will push to the point of needing a physical shock to wake them up to the fact that their parents are in charge and that bad behaviour will not be tollerated (consequences to their actions and all that) - by the same token, not all the children who push the situation to the point that they get smacked will learn by it.

Yes, some parents will go beyond a mack and into physical abuse, just as some who do not smack their children will take verbal reprimands into the realms of verbal and emotional abuse. They are not the norm and I would no more accuse a parent who smached a persistently misbehaving child of physical-abuse than I would accuse a parent who scolded a misbehaving child of verbal-oremotional abuse simply based on the fact that some parents take it too far.

Teddy

[bippimalin.livejournal.com]

Let me tell all of you who read this something.

I was spanked and slapped by my dad when I was a kid. The only effect it had was that I became completley hysterical since I didn't understand why he'd do that.
It didn't stop until I kicked him in the private parts as a 12 year old to make him stop when he came at me for not obeying him. Had he continued I'd have reported him to the cops.
I will NEVER forgive him for hitting me, especially as he was hit himself as a kid. And I will NEVER forgive mum for allowing him to do that to me.
Currently I live 1000 kilometers from my parents, I talk with them on the phone for 10 to 30 minutes once every 2-3 weeks or so. Maybe that would be different if they hadn't done that to me.

I'd never allow any child of mine to be physically punished. Any man who'd raise his hand towards my kid would find himself removed from the child. Forcefully if needed.
I'd see myself as a failure of a parent if I ever allowed such a thing to happen to them, especially since I remember what it felt like to me.

[clothsprogs.livejournal.com]

I was spanked as achild too.

I didn't like it, but it was a necessary part of teaching me where the boundaries were.

I was as stubbourn as a child as I am as an adult. Verbal reprimands and/or loss of privilege punishments for bad behaviour did not always work, something more was needed, on occasion, to get the message across that there are unplesent consequences to unaceptable behaviour - a spanking/smack served that purpose.

I dislike my father and have nothing to do with him (both of my sisters and myself disowned him a number of years ago) but that has nothing to do with the fact that he smacked us as children. Our mother smacked us too and we all loved and liked her.

I do not like, nor love my father, but he and my mother saw to it that we were (mostly) well behaved, especially outside of immediate family situations - which is more than a lot of parents did or do - and if it took the occasional smack to do that, I don't have a problem with it.

I cannot remember a single time when I was spanked without deserving it. I certainly didn't always see it see it that way at the time, but then hindsight is usually wonderfully clear.

There were times when I knew I had pushed too far and that a spanking was inevitable (by which point it was usually too late to prevent it - the time I bit another child, I had an entire afternoon of repentent worrying in whihc to reflect the folley of my actions. I had done physical and emotional harm to another, nothing short of a spanking was going to be sufficinet to punish me for that one... with hindsight, I think my father went easy on me due to the length of time I'd been "stewing in my own juice" over my crime), and as I got older I learned to anticipate the situations of sufficient magnitude of badness that would probably lead to my getting spanked - and so avoid them. In this way, they were an increadibly effective deterrent and teaching aid.

Teddy

[ginger-dragon.livejournal.com]

My parents never raised their hands to me, and I have never done so to mine, son and step-daughter. I can't see why- how on earth could I bring myself to bring physical pain to my children?

[ginger-dragon.livejournal.com]

As I see it, a small child can resort to hitting or biting because they are so young, and they don't yet have the ability to express themself in words. As an adult I have infinitive more resources to express my will, and in case as a mother, to raise my child, than violence. Perhaps it is easier to fall back on hitting someone, but is it really a behaviour fit for an adult? In my mind not. And adult ought to have better way to express something.

[silverstah.livejournal.com]

clothsprogs' comment made me realise one thing. I, the extremely scared of conflicts person, actually feel secure enough among my friends on LJ to write something that I know is controversial. Yay!

Yay, indeed! :) I just made a post alluding to that as well. It's nice to know that even when we don't agree, we can do so civily and (hopefully!) learn something from each other. :)

[liadethornegge.livejournal.com]

Yay for you. And for the record, I agree with you.

[sarahbellem.livejournal.com]

I was spanked as a child, and I didn't like it, but I also think I needed it. It did make me think twice before misbehaving...

I don't think that spanking abuse any more than being raised by a single working mother was abuse (another issue that gets dragged out every so often by the Religious Right in this country). I think it was a means to an end. And I don't think my mother WANTED to use spanking as a tool for discipline. In fact, I know she didn't want to. But she did resort to it when nothing else would get across to us, and by golly, we shaped up pretty quick.

So, to me, spanking is NOT abuse because there is no intent to physically harm the child (and I can attest to the fact that the threat of spanking was far worse than the actual act, which often didn't hurt at all). Hitting is something entirely different, which to me denotes an intention to harm physically.

My mother was raised by a physically abusive father, and that was a legacy she did her best not to pass on to us. That said, there was a handful of times where I provoked her into actual abuse (and believe me, I did provoke her), where she would use force against me with intent to harm. And those instances were lightyears away from the kind of "harm" spanking caused. So having experienced the two things, I can say comfortably that there's a BIG difference between spanking and abuse.

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

*nods*

My parents' tool of last resort was a steel cork-backed artist's ruler that lived on the top of the refrigerator. There was never more than one light swat-- and it was used only after a reasoned, well-considered decision. Punishment was never deferred.

I knew I deserved it, and so did my brothers. It stung.

I own one of those rulers now, because I bought one to use as a calligraphy rule. I haven't found it necessary in the raising of my own children, but-- different personalities will test authority differently.

[amber-laine.livejournal.com]

I was going to write something very, very similar.

While I do think my mom sometimes went overboard with spanking, I definitely deserved to get spanked. I was an asshole of a child.

Now, I don't spank my kids. But it isn't that I would *never* do it; my kids just don't *need* it. I manage to put the fear of God into them without touching them :)

Generally, I am of the opinion that when we place our hands on our loved ones, it should be a positive touch, not a negative touch. And I teach my kids that. But I also believe that this doesn't always work, and that some kids really don't respond to anything but spanking. I think, when it comes to child rearing, you do what you *have* to do.

[myladyswardrobe.livejournal.com]

There is a whole world of difference between a smack/spank and hitting/beating. The former is done ONLY as part of a process of discipline whereas the latter is done without careful thought and therefore is abuse.

My parents smacked as a child and I usually deserved it. When it was my Mum, she ALWAYS gave ample verbal warning.

A child sometimes does need a good short sharp shock to make them realise that they have overstepped the boundaries. How this is administered is the main issue. Is it part of loving discipline? Sometimes a loving parent has to show that there are consequences for an action.

An example is my cousin Timmy. My uncle and aunt were adamant they would not smack their two boys whatsoever. Timmy developed leukaemia when he was 5 years old and was very ill. When he got better, he was still carefully looked after and for better or worse, was allowed his own way in many cases. Once he was in school he found that he couldn't get his own way with fellow pupils and started to bully to get his own way. My Uncle witnessed one episode where Timmy hit a smaller girl so hard that she fell to the ground bruised and hurt.

Timmy had NEVER been smacked in his life - he was now 8 years old. The school had warned my uncle over Timmy’s behaviour and my uncle had told Timmy off about it. Having witnessed this episode, my Uncle gave Timmy a very thorough smack (not hitting or beating) and pointed out that how Timmy now felt was how that little girl felt. He also made Timmy apologise publically (in the school) to the little girl.

Timmy NEVER bullied again. He learnt a very hard and painful lesson, but he learnt it well. And it was the last time that Timmy was ever smacked.

Children LIKE guidelines. They NEED them and feel very insecure without them. Which is why there are a lot of "feral" children on the streets in the UK at least. None of them have had boundaries set at home or in school so they can't set them for themselves. They have NO self discipline whatsoever.

A child growing to an adult cannot teach themselves self discipline - thats what an adult is there for. Discipline from a parent can teach good life habits - self control and self discipline; working with other people; sharing. Smacking should only ever be a last resort. My mum gave 3 chances to me. If I still misbehaved then I got the smack.

Where a parent simply hits out at a child for no particular or obvious/clear misbehaviour and without any warning, this is abuse. That parent probably changes his/her mind over what is misbehaviour and what isn’t. This would be very confusing for a child and would make them equally insecure as does no guidelines.

Loving discipline provides clear cut boundaries to a child with clear cut consequences with chances, if they overstep those boundaries.

When I started looking after edmndclotworthy’s nephew Jamie, I checked with his parents what sort of disciplinary methods they would prefer I employed. Their response was that I used my judgement. I checked that they did not object to a smack if I deemed it necessary and they did not. They trusted me and in the 7 years that Edmund and I have looked after Jamie during Kentwell (a week or so at a time) and sometimes on holiday, I have only ever had to smack Jamie once. Perhaps I was lucky but Jamie knows that he can never ever play me up (he does it to Edmund instead!). His siblings also don’t try to play me up either. I have been told by those who have observed me with Jamie that it is because I don’t patronise him. I make it clear what I expect from him and what I won’t tolerate and I usually have to warn just once. I have even been able to quell a strange child who is having a temper tantrum in a shop by a mere look.

Children are not born "evil" or "badly behaved" but they can learn to become bad/naughty/feral if they grow up without boundaries and consequences. Smacking can have its place as part of loving discipline – hitting or beating certainly does NOT.

[peggyelizabeth.livejournal.com]

"I have even been able to quell a strange child who is having a temper tantrum in a shop by a mere look."

My brother and I like to refer to "the look" which when given by my mother is a warning that we had best stop whatever it is we are doing & behave or face the concequences.

He's 26 & I'm almost 29 and to this day, if she gives us "the look" we change our behavior.

[myladyswardrobe.livejournal.com]

::giggle::

Its really odd - I am usually not aware of when I do it. But other people have noticed! And old boyfriend of mine had that look once. He said it was so powerful as to melt rivets!!!!

I was and am always aware of my Mum doing "the look". And still do! Like you, it made me stop whatever I was doing that was wrong (or made me get on and do what I was *supposed* to be doing) or face the consequences.

I was far more terrified of that "look" than I was of getting a smack!

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry this is bauhausfrau, LJ isn't letting me login, curse them...

Anyway I'm with you. I'm a mom of 2 boys, mostly quite well behaved, and don't feel I have any need to hit. At least in my experience if you tell a child consequences and then actually FOLLOW THROUGH if they disobey there is very little need to even raise your voice. Yes, your child may cry when you put their toy in time out but if you stick to your guns and don't give in they usually stop by less than a minute later.

The thing that really kills me is so often you see parents hitting their kids BECAUSE THE KIDS HIT! Oh yeah, hitting a kid while telling them not to hit makes a lot of sense, uh, NOT!

[frualeydis.livejournal.com]

LJ logged me out yesterday too.
And that's what I think too. You don't learn a kid that he/she shouldn't bully other kids by bullying them yourself. The lesson learnt then isn't "it's wrong to bully those that are weaker" but the exact opposite, since that's what the parent is doing. It teaches the kid that the adult is allowed to hurt the child because he/she is stronger, that "might is right". Not something I want to teach my kids.

/Eva

[bauhausfrau.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly. :-)

The funny thing is I'm actually a more strict parent than many I know and have better behaved children, all without any hitting.